FROM TONY ABBOUD/VTA – From the Trenches: VTA Weekly Update
FROM THE TRENCHES: VTA WEEKLY UPDATE
This week has been another exciting week for VTA. VTA’s ranks continue to grow as an additional association has joined our membership! In addition, we are asking all state associations to be vigilant as budget bills are being filed, and several include burdensome taxes on vapor products.
THE FEDERAL FRONT
WE NEED YOU TO TAKE A MINUTE AND ADD THE NAME OF YOUR COMPANY TO THE INDUSTRY LETTER ASKING HHS SECRETARY TOM PRICE TO SAVE VAPOR!
As you may know, President Trump’s Administration has made rolling back burdensome federal regulations a cornerstone of its agenda. Limiting the harsh impact of the Deeming Regulation must be addressed now.
Please take a moment today and lend your business’ name to a letter urging HHS Secretary Price to delay full implementation of the FDA deeming regulation, which is the first necessary step in the larger effort to reform the way the FDA regulates the vapor industry.
EVERY VAPE SHOP SHOULD BE SIGNED ONTO THIS LETTER!
Join VTA’s Next Webinar on Marketing
In our continuing effort to inform and educate retailers and manufacturers on important regulatory issues, we are pleased to announce the next installment of
VTA’s Compliance Webinar Series:
Marketing: Real Guidance for Navigating
FDA
and State Laws
on the Marketing and Sale of ENDS Products
Presented by
Chris Howard
Vice President, General Counsel, and Chief Compliance Officer
E-Alternative Solutions, Inc.
MONDAY, APRIL 3, 2017
1:00 p.m. (eastern) / 12:00 p.m. (central) / 10:00 a.m. (pacific)
After registering, you will receive a confirmation e-mail containing information about joining the webinar.
VTA Asks All Vape Shops to Promote CASAA Call to Action.
This week, VTA asked all vape shops in its rapidly expanding network of 20+ state vapor associations to provide their customers an opportunity to write to HHS Secretary Tom Price asking for relief from the Deeming Regulation. We distributed campaign instructions, an in-store flyer, and the consumer letter drafted by CASAA. This will give your customers a great opportunity to engage and tell their personal stories to Secretary Price while asking for relief. Please make sure that all of your shops, and every other shop owner that you know, is joining in. If you don’t have the campaign information already, contact your state vapor association leader or e-mail info@vaportechnology.org and put CASAA CAMPAIGN in the subject line and we’ll get you the materials right away.
VTA Welcomes New Retail Board Member Stacey Hamilton!
This week, Vapor Technology Association Executive Director Tony Abboud announced that Stacey Hamilton, owner of Kaleidoscope Vapor and President of the Breathe Easier Alliance of Alabama (BEAA), is joining VTA as the organization’s newest board member.
Hamilton on joining VTA’s board: “My passion for advocating for the vapor industry is guided by fifteen years as a trauma and cardiovascular Computed Tomography Technologist where I witnessed firsthand the devastating medical impact of long-term smoking. Given my experience, I share VTA’s deep commitment to ensuring that vape shops remain the primary place for consumers to gather and access their life-changing products. I have been repeatedly impressed by how VTA thoughtfully and professionally addresses the many challenges our industry faces – especially at the retail level. I am thrilled to join VTA’s accomplished leadership team as we fight the FDA’s dangerous deeming regulation.” Click here to read the full press release.
TPSAC meeting in Silver Spring, MD – April 6, 2017
On April 6, 2017, FDA will present information to the Tobacco Products Scientific Advisory Committee(TPSAC) on the processes used in review of tobacco product applications, including premarket tobacco, substantial equivalence, and modified risk tobacco product applications. Topics will include the statutory standards applicable to the different types of applications, the scientific basis for review decisions, with a focus on PMTA and MRTPA, and the role of the Committee in the review process. Click here for more information.
Seating for this meeting may be limited, so the public is encouraged to watch the free webcast instead of traveling to the meeting. The link for the webcast will be available approximately 15 minutes prior to the beginning of the meeting each day. Click here to access the webcast.
THE STATE OF THE STATES
The Vapor Technology Association has been working tirelessly to protect the vapor industry over the last week. There are several issues and bills affecting the vapor industry noted below. There are also several outreach efforts by state associations to educate and inform state legislators about the vapor industry. Please contact us if you would like to be involved in these outreach and education efforts and we will connect you to your respective state association.
California Proposition 56 Implementation Update
The California Board of Equalization issued its initial discussion paper on the implementation of Proposition 56. This document is currently under review by VTA and California Smoke Free Organization (CSFO) and we will be providing guidance on it in the coming days. While this is only the initial discussion paper, not a final implementation of Proposition 56, we would like to thank CSFO for their efforts in educating the Board of Equalization. It is clear from the initial discussion paper that several of the recommendations CSFO made to the Board of Equalization were heard. There is more work to be done on the proposition implementation and in the legislature. If you are in California, and not currently a member of CSFO, join by clicking here.
Montana Fighting 74% Wholesale Tax
The Montana vaping industry continues to fight a 74% wholesale tax that would decimate Montana businesses. Over the last week, you have stepped up and have delivered more than 5,000 emails to the Montana Senate members and the Governor. However, due to a procedural maneuver, the bill has been moved to the Senate Floor and may be heard in the Montana House next week. Watch for more calls to action and continue to stand up for Montana businesses and consumers.
Nevada Under Attack
The Nevada Vaping Association needs your assistance and help. AB 269 was introduced last week which would impose a 5 cent per milliliter tax on vapor products. The bill was held in committee, but this will not be the last effort to advance the bill. In addition, this week AB 450 was introduced which would add vapor products to the Nevada Clean Indoor Air Act! Click here to contact the Nevada Vaping Association and get involved.
Ohio Vapor Trade Association Leading the Fight Against 69% Wholesale Tax
The Ohio Vapor Trade Association is facing a 69% wholesale tax. The OHVTA will be setting up meetings with several legislators in the next couple of weeks to educate legislators and fight the tax. Click here to join OHVTA and join the fight!
GET SOCIAL / STAY CONNECTED
Get involved and save vapor!
We are on the right path, but in order to be successful, we present a unified front. This is why VTA wants YOU to get involved. Call your state legislator. Write your congressman. Because if we do not make our voices heard, the powerful interests that are working to defeat us will prevail.
To learn more about how to get involved in the fight to save vapor, visit www.vaportechnology.org and www.SaveVapor.org.
Please take a moment and forward this email to anyone you know will be interested in what’s going on and encourage them to sign up for our mailing list at www.vaportechnology.org or www.SaveVapor.org.
And, don’t forget to follow us on Facebook and Twitter.
Thank you for all you do to defend our industry!
Tony Abboud
Executive Director
Vapor Technology Association
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: LiPo 3S 1800mAh Performance/Temperature Shootout and Testing Conclusions
Testing of the 1800mAh LiPo’s is done and I probably won’t be adding any others to the list for at least a couple of months. I’ll be catching up on some round cell testing and then the 2250mAh LiPo’s hopefully some time in April-May.
Here is the graph directly comparing the performance, at 20A continuous, of all the 1800mAh LiPo packs I tested. I’ve also included a table of the maximum temperatures measured during a 20A continuous discharge.
The Turnigy Graphene 65C is the best performer with the Turnigy Nano-Tech 65C-130C close behind. The MaxAmps 100C is clearly the worst performer.
The table of temperatures echoes what is seen in the graphs, with the the Turnigy Graphene 65C and Turnigy Nano-Tech 65C-130C having the lowest operating temperatures and the MaxAmps 100C having the highest temperature.
The 22°C spread between the hottest and coolest running packs at 20A continuous is huge and reflects the large differences in internal resistances between some of these packs.
It is the internal resistance of the cells that determines both the voltage sag and the amount of heat produced during a discharge. The cells with the lowest internal resistance will produce the least heat and be the best performers, running at the highest voltage.
As seen in the discharge graph and the temperatures table, a couple of the other packs still performed well. If their prices are lower than the top performers that could make them packs you should consider if money is tight.
Be aware of the sizes of each of these packs though! The Turnigy Graphene is larger than all the other packs. The MaxAmps is the smallest.
1800mAh LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
https://imgur.com/a/NmMvT
FROM THE AVA – Important Action Needed by Vaping Businesses — Sign This Letter to HHS Secretary Tom Price
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THE EHPRO MOD 101 + FOLLOW-UPS, LAST (NOT A) CONTEST WINNER AND A NEW ONE!
A PBusardo Review – The EHPRO Mod 101 + (Not A) Contests
In this video, we do some clarification & some follow-up, talk about a liquid line, review the EHPRO Mod 101, announce the last (not a) contest winner, and kick off a new one!
The Links:
Battery Mooch Information Mentioned In The Video
VonVape
Joshua Unger/VonVape Information Mentioned In The Video
EHPRO
Vape Sourcing
The Post Review Follow-up:
- 3/29/17 – The information came in at 4AM. The device shuts itself off after 30 minutes. This is why it didn’t bother me as much as with mods that shut off around the 5 minute mark.
- 3/29/17 – In the video I said the device works with an 18450 or 18500. First, for that 18450 I meant to say 18490… surprised no one caught that yet. Second, SupaDr00g commented that those batteries would not work so I took a closer look with two batteries I had on hand:
The AW-IMR 18490 did not work. The threading on the larger tube section was not deep enough to allow the battery cap to tighten enough to make contact. The BestFire 18500 did work. They are both button top batteries. Keep that in mind should you want to use the device in “18500” mode:
AW-IMR ≈ 49.2mm
BestFire ≈ 50.7mm
BTW – Never measure battery length with metal calipers. 😉
The Video:
*NOTE: Any use of these videos in part or in their entirety without Phil Busardo’s expressed written consent is strictly prohibited.
The Photos:
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: MaxAmps 100C 1850mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…tiny but only a 6C/17C pack
Bottom Line: I realize that this pack is widely used and loved by many vapers. These test results are not an indictment of anyone or anyone’s decision to use this pack. Its performance is what it is, no matter who uses it or how it’s used.
Hopefully though it’s no surprise that a pack that is both smaller and having a higher capacity rating than others in its class also has a higher internal resistance, adversely affecting its performance. It’s no different than the round cells we use. Higher capacity means a lower current rating. We can’t have the highest capacity and the highest current rating in the same cell….or lipo pack.
This MaxAmps is stunningly, absurdly overrated. It has the highest internal resistance I’ve tested in an 1800mAh-class pack and is by far the worst performer. It reached the maximum internal temperature of 60°C at only 10A continuous and 30A pulsed. A single 30A continuous discharge severely damaged the pack.
Its internal resistance is more than double the average for the other packs, resulting in truly huge voltage sag. Discharging this pack at its 185A, “True 100C”, current rating would result in about 7.7V of voltage sag, instantly bringing the pack voltage down to about 4.9V. This makes this pack’s 185A rating utterly useless for even the shortest of pulses.
The pack is available with 12AWG and 16AWG wiring. The test results were almost identical for both wire sizes, showing that the cell resistance is much, much higher than any changes in wire resistance.
MaxAmps sells this pack with 16AWG wiring as the “Standard” configuration and 12AWG wiring as an upgrade. This is astounding to me. This pack’s 185A rating is far above the 117A “fusing current” rating for 16AWG wire, the current level at which the wire melts after several seconds.
Yes, melts.
Even just a short pulse applied at this pack’s “True 100A” rating could raise the 16AWG wiring’s temperature to several hundred degrees.
The two packs I tested here were purchased directly from MaxAmps and are not “bad packs”. I also did some preliminary testing of a third pack a couple months ago and it had an internal resistance of about 45mOhms, matching the terrible performance of these two.
Having said all this though the pack’s performance is still better than any 18650’s in a sled (where the internal resistance totals at least 75mOhms) at 30A or less. Combine this with the MaxAmps’s small size and you still have a pack that can be used very successfully in lots of vaping setups. It’s an especially good match with regulator boards in the 200W-250W range, combining small size and adequate power handling. If you have the extra room though there are better performing packs available for higher power/current LiPo setups.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
– Capacity = 1800mAh
– Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 10A (6C)
– Average Pack IR = 41.2mOhms
– Average Cell IR = 12.7mOhms
– Dimensions/Weight = 87 x 36 x 21mm/16AWG wiring =124gms, 12AWG wiring=128gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/maxamps-100c-1850mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-tiny-but-only-a-6c-17c-pack.795569/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
NEW FROM REGULATOR WATCH – Lesson for Canada | British Reaction to ‘No Comparisons’
Here’s the latest from Brent Stafford at Regulator Watch:
Woven into Canada’s draft federal vaping regulations is a contradiction, which could undermine every aspect of the legislation. If Bill S-5 is enacted ‘as is’ no person in Canada whether a vaper, retailer, e-liquid manufacture or doctor, lawyer and member of government could compare vaping to smoking in anyway, let alone state that vaping is less harmful than smoking.
Contravening the ‘no health claims and ‘no comparisons’ sections of Bill S-5 would be a criminal offense. But according to one of Britain’s top smoking cessation experts the real crime is that Canada’s federal vaping regulations would result in the death of thousands of smokers, if they receive the wrong message about vaping.
In this episode of RegWatch meet Louise Ross, the Stop Smoking Service Manager for Leicester City Council in England and learn how extraordinarily “vaping friendly” the UK really is—only on RegWatch by RegulatorWatch.com.
RegulatorWatch.com – March 28, 2017.
WEB EXTRA:
Debunking Bad Press | Web Extra
When junk science is appealing it inevitably leads to a deluge of mainstream media coverage. A favorite target proves to be vaping. How to combat it?
In this RegWatch Web Extra hear from Louise Ross, the Stop Smoking Service Manager for Leicester City Council in England and learn how her Stop Smoking Service fights bad science in the news—only on RegWatch by RegulatorWatch.com.
RegulatorWatch.com – March 28, 2017.
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Thunder Power Rampage 70C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only 11C/31C, but an ok performer
Bottom Line: This Thunder Power Rampage is overrated (for its factory rating) but it is an ok performing pack.
Its internal resistance is a bit higher than the average of the other packs I have tested, resulting in a bit of extra voltage sag, but the consistency between the cells in the two packs was the best of the packs I tested. Discharging this pack at its 126A (70C) current rating would quickly bring the voltage down to about 9V. This pack’s 126A (70C) rating can’t even be called a pulse rating.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 20A (11C)
Average Pack IR = 24.0mOhms
Average Cell IR = 6.6mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 103 x 33 x 25mm/ 156gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/thunder-power-rampage-70c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-only-11c-31c-but-ok-performe.795357/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Thunder Power Elite 55C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only a poor performing 11C/19C pack
Bottom Line: This Thunder Power Elite is an overrated and poor performing pack for its factory rating.
Its internal resistance is at least 30% higher than the average of the other packs I have tested, resulting in extra voltage sag. Discharging this pack at its 99A (55C) current rating would quickly bring the voltage down under 10V.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 20A (11C)
Average Pack IR = 26.1mOhms
Average Cell IR = 7.4mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 100 x 32 x 27mm/ 158gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/thunder-power-elite-55c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-a-poor-performing-11c-19c-pack.795183/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Turnigy A-SPEC 65C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only a poor performing 11C/19C pack
Bottom Line: This Turnigy A-SPEC is an overrated and poor performing pack for its factory rating.
Its internal resistance is about double the average of the other packs I have tested, resulting in extra voltage sag. Discharging this pack at its 117A (65C) current rating would quickly bring the voltage down to about 8V
It can’t even be considered a 65C pulse-rated pack as the first pulse would be near 8V, below the typical 9.0V cutoff for a 3S LiPo pack.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 20A (11C)
Average Pack IR = 36.1mOhms
Average Cell IR = 10.1mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 103 x 31 x 25mm/ 160gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/turnigy-a-spec-65c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-only-a-poor-performing-11c-19c-pack.795063/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Turnigy Nano-Tech 65C-130C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…preposterously overrated but a decent performer
Bottom Line: This Turnigy Nano-Tech is a decent performing pack but is absurdly overrated.
Discharging this pack at its 117A (65C) continuous current rating would quickly bring the voltage down to about 9V and quickly heat it up past Turnigy’s max temperature rating, causing the pack to permanently puff and be damaged. It can’t even be considered a 65C pulse-rated pack. Its 130C (234A) “pulse” rating is ridiculous. The fusing current rating for 12AWG wire, where it melts in a few seconds, is 217A. Pulsing this pack at its 234A rating can easily heat the wiring and connections up to several hundred degrees. Long pulses would melt the copper wiring.
Any decent pack can be pulsed for very, very short time periods at these crazy high current levels but that doesn’t make those discharge current levels a rating. It’s just a capability of the pack. Without knowing the length of the pulse, how often you can do it (its duty cycle), and the criteria used to set the rating (voltage? temperature? run time? cycle life?) these numbers are useless. They can’t be used to compare any pack against any other.
It’s shame that Turnigy felt the need to exaggerate the rating of this pack so badly as it’s a decent performing pack.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 35A (19C)
Average Pack IR = 16.5mOhms
Average Cell IR = 3.8mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 104 x 34 x 25mm/ 176gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/turnigy-nano-tech-65c-130c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-preposterously-overrated.794989/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
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